Church Is Not God
At least not in absolute CHURCH = GOD terms. Lets get that straight before I get comments about heresy. Trust me, I can get more mathematical with it if you want, I do programming for a living.
This post is a response to a lively conversation that today was taking place in the comments of my post about God’s Billboards. I thought I’d post my latest response in a post all to itself, especially for those of you who might be interested but didn’t know such lively debate was taking place. I think Jen and Mike continued some of the discussion here also.
In trying to state more clearly the purposes of my blog posts that question church culture, Americanism, and the marriage between the two, my ideas and the ideas that Mike and Chris (subversivechurch) discuss on their blog are about questioning culture and the widely accepted notion of what church is. Well, thats part of it. Either way, this is essential to understanding why we question.
Let me be frank about this: Church is not God. Church is a human institution inspired by God but however you look at it, church is not perfect.
I have heard as many stories about Christians hurting others as I have of non-Christians hurting others, and much of this occurs within the walls of the church – a place that was meant for holiness but has for many instead become a reminder of the evil within man. I have met as many people who grew up in the church and left after being manipulated, used, and un-loved, as I have found people who spent their entire lives looking at it from the outside. The point is that just because its church, doesn’t make it right. Just because a preacher says it and claims to know God doesn’t mean its true. Christians are just as human as anyone else. They are still selfish, prideful, confused, idolatrous, and many other things, and being in a building marked “church” does not automatically make the people who attend better.
When we offer ideas and criticisms, it is because we see the problems with humanity. There will always be a battle to fight, and thats what I am doing. I question the common knowledge, the practices that are so widely accepted in a culture where they cannot be questioned without accusations of heresy.
What do you think Jesus did? Do you think he was crucified because he was just too nice? Of course not, Jesus told the wealthy and the powerful, the pillars of society that they were wrong. He was a revolutionary, and to go with the flow of questionable cultural practices was out of the question. And what happens if you see the wrong in today’s pillars of society? Are we expected to ignore it?
In the same way, look at Martin Luther. Where would the Universal (Catholic) Church be today had Luther not come along and told them they were wrong?
Jen said in response that “it’s not up to me to say whether or not the ‘church is wrong’”. Of course it is! Saying that a human religious institution (that is more associated with non-religious culture than you might think) is not to be questioned is to give in to popular opinion much the same way the Germans did in the 1930′s. I’m not equating the church to Hitler, but I’m serious when I say that it could happen
In all this I don’t mean to suggest that church is not inspired of God, or that it is somehow completely the opposite of holy. Seriously, its somewhere in the middle between perfectly in line with God vs. perfectly against God. And whats more, it shouldn’t be a crisis to realize that. Man is fallen? Genesis 3. That makes any institution involving man fallen too.
Your responses on this idea are much appreciated. I hope that the true idea I’m explaining is in fact what is being articulated. I worry more about this than ever, because a lot of conversations I find myself in become heated because of my poor articulation of the most basic and true ideas.
UPDATE:
Tyler’s comment helped me articulate this thought in my head: We should look at the church the same way we look at humanity. I look at the church the same way I look at myself. The original idea was good. What it is now is not perfect, and with this knowledge I am constantly looking for improvement. Constantly paying attention to what isn’t quite right. The bottom line is that its a mistake to look at the church as though it exists exactly as Jesus or even Paul would have seen it or envisioned it.
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Very articulate. Can I just just say, “What he said?”
Yeah I totally agree Amos. I think also though it is important to understand that the Bible talks greatly about the church (universal) was paid for by Christ’s blood. Obviously this isn’t local church, but local church plays a big role in universal church.
i think you have completely missed my point, honestly. in reference to specifically billboards (which is what the post was about)…i understand you were talking about the “American Church” or the Americanization of the Church…BUT specifically that post was about billboards and my comments on the billboard support specifically the ministry being effective whether it’s to believers or non.
“Jen said in response that “it’s not up to me to say whether or not the ‘church is wrong’”. ” honestly…that is out of context a little bit…in a conversation referring to picketing in front of the church…and read on with the other posts and you would see that i’m not saying we shouldn’t try and change the hurt areas of the church. the method of “storming the gates” at this point does seem hasty, foolish, and bluntly…immature. it was a little difficult to juggle both conversations…the one i was responding to you…and the other to subversive…which in my mind were really going in separate directions. that quote was in context to to my response to subversive. you can read more under his post.
i feel like i’m arguing the method…but the defense from you guys is that i’m arguing on behalf of the church and it’s practices…seems that you have missed a few key points in my posts…like…”i agree”. i do disagree on the method of “changing the church”. and my whole point to subversive…and to you here…i’m not ignoring the things taht need change or just “Accepting it” “feeling good in my pew”…i am suggesting a different method other than anger motivated. i just believe there can a transition without busting down the doors assuming every megachurch pastor is corrupt. i defend the argument that God is using those churches for a purpose may not readily see…a purpose at this time we don’t understand. so instead of rising up against…why not rise up with…respectfully and with the purpose to transition the church to what we hope it will be. working together, trying to promote the unity of Christians…trying to benefit the Church as a whole…and the Christian community. that’s all. i just feel its hasty to throw the whole church under the bus at this point…without taking into account what God is doing…is setting into place. so “revolutionists” like yourself can pick it up and take it farther…make sense?
(and yes i do think it is wrong to point fingers at the church leadership as a whole…question their agenda?? not wrong….point fingers and say they aren’t doing what God told them to do? yeah…i think that’s definitely not the right approach.) AGAIN…i don’t question your mission…i question the motives and approach.
Jen, I think the idea is a lot simpler than what the conversation has made it to be. Jesus said that we will know a person by their fruit, so when you state that it’s wrong to question whether or not they’re doing what “God said” for them to do- I think that statement is unfounded. Jesus held the religious leaders of the day to a higher standard, and the Bible warns us of wanting to be leaders in the church. Granted I will not judge the humanity of Christian leaders b/c like Amos said, they’re just as human as I am. BUT are Christians and their leaders giving church a bad name? It is worth looking into, examining and changing where necessary. The church to me is about community, and not the tradition of a 4 wall building w/ so many minutes of song and preaching and unfortunately, it is the tradition that has turned people away, b/c the tradition, the insititution madates rules and regulations and Christ is not about that at all. I’m not saying those things are necessarily wrong, but when they become the only image people see- well something is wrong. Leaders need to recognize it, the church needs to recognize and become real….humble and ready to change. Just my collective thoughts on the matter.
i completely agree…and i think it’s confusing…i have made some of those other points on the other post…going back and forth…also i think it’s mis-read as i was referring to the concept of picketing with sarcastic signs. if you will read the other posts on subversivechurch blogs…i’m not saying don’t question…my intent is really to challenge the attitude. not so much here…more on subversive. and my point that we want to change the image of the church…but my feeling is the effectiveness of the “storming the gates” mentality. when the motive is out of anger and not a desire to build and a love…it ceases to be a challenge to better the church and turns into just an attack. which i think creates an even worse image of the church.
“It is worth looking into, examining and changing where necessary. ”
agreed…and stated in my above post.
“Jesus said that we will know a person by their fruit, so when you state that it’s wrong to question whether or not they’re doing what “God said” for them to do- I think that statement is unfounded.”
here is where i already responded to that.
” honestly…that is out of context a little bit…in a conversation referring to picketing in front of the church…and read on with the other posts and you would see that i’m not saying we shouldn’t try and change the hurt areas of the church. the method of “storming the gates” at this point does seem hasty, foolish, and bluntly…immature. it was a little difficult to juggle both conversations…the one i was responding to you…and the other to subversive…which in my mind were really going in separate directions. that quote was in context to to my response to subversive (and picketing with sarcastic signs). you can read more under his post.
so AGAIN…i have not at all implied “examination” and “change” is not necessary…simply the method at which we attain what we are searching for. maybe i just don’t explain well…
[...] conversation, religion by amoslanka on July 3rd, 2008 Yet another response to the conversation here and [...]
Jen and Ash — thanks much for weighing in. My response is here.
Jen,
Just as a quick side note. My protest sign wasn’t to be taken sarcastically, it is a perfectly resonable question to ask.
-mike
[...] 2008 On Friday I wrote my first post in which I openly claim heresy instead of only guessing I may be accused of it. A few of the comments (thanks, by the way) both on the post and through email seemed more [...]